The Bnetwork Guestbook Archives: 2-13 May 1997

Last week I was snowshoeing at Mount Rainier, where I discovered a tremendous avalanche with snow-boulders the size of VW buses. The avalanche followed a curving path and flowed like DQs river into the valley. But unlike a river the avalanche slid to a decelerated halt. All of the snow chunks and debris lay busted on top of the late-spring snowpack. Our culture is the avalanche. Right now we can look up hill and see where we came from. To predict the future all we need to do is stare down at the approaching valley bottom. But as with any avalanche, they tell you, if you get caught in it "body-surf it out." But even with that technique, with snow-boulders the size of VWs, your chances of survival is slim. Always check the avalanche conditions before you ski and don't ski when the avalanche danger is high. Our Culture's avalanche danger is "extreme." Things to note: A. Learn about snow conditions. B. If you do survive after the avalanche halts, don't make the same mistake again.
Dave Zelenka <>
Longmire, WA USA - Tuesday, May 13, 1997 at 23:28:10 (PDT)
Just so you all know my operating procedure...I reserve the right to delete messages that do not have a verifiable email address associated with them.

To use this public venue, you must take responsibility for what you have to say.
The Webmaster <>
Houston , TX USA - Tuesday, May 13, 1997 at 19:15:25 (PDT)

I found The Story of B to be an interesting and thought provoking book. I have suggested it to my conversation group for discussion. Excellent!
Terry <>
Cotati, CA USA - Tuesday, May 13, 1997 at 15:21:06 (PDT)
Hello Daniel, and interested individuals. Great stuff in Illusions magazine. I've been searching for a better understanding of the history of man lately and have been pointed in the direction of the books of the Bible that most of the writers of the cu rrently accepted books and Jesus often refer to and quote from. But laymen are have been subjected to the interpretation by the clergy. Guess what? Probably the grossest misuse of faith and misdirection of belief has been pulled off by authorities to gain and keep control of the masses. I'm I glad I love to question authority. Don't take my word for something you already know in your hearts. Find out for yourselves. It has much more meaning that way. Locate the books that were omitted from the Bibles in c urrent use by asking theologians or clergy (i.e. The Book of Enoch or Noah)and study the bibliography of the Bible. Read writings of Zecharia Sitchin or for send for lecture series tapes from Father Charles Moore (408)625-4093 P.O. Box 51441 Pacific Grove , CA.93950. If you think "Ishmael" and "B" set the course for freedom from "Mother Culture" you better sit down when you get to these things. Its all making better sense to me all the time. Now I have to learn how to forgive those who have and are so will fully engaged it what is undamningly called misinformation. I hope this information helps all who are wondering what to do with yourselves now that you been exposed to my friend Daniel Quinn. Hey, Daniel did you get that I.M.B.R.U.B. license plate we talk ed about last January. Seems since I've signed on last time the acronym has done some blossoming. The best of truth and answer searching to all the sincere.
John V. Anderson <jonjon@info2000,net>
Fort Collins, CO USA - Sunday, May 11, 1997 at 22:41:20 (PDT)
"The Story of B" just fell into my hands at the local library. After reading just a short amount, my frient went to the bokstore and brought ISHMAEL. We are very interested, but still reading these books.
Sandi Rein <>
Midwest City, OK USA - Sunday, May 11, 1997 at 10:37:40 (PDT)
If God is dead his determinism certainly lives on. I have so determined that because of the existence I assign to my own determination. I will it myself. How did you do that, you ask? I give my consciousness a quantum value and integrate it with the other forces of nature, I employ a fractal iterational thought process and square my awareness of the alpha and the omega, the universe within and without. All existence, me in other words, are propelled towards an infinity that is mine and mine alone, forever. Where you are bound and determined towards is your own infinite business. I may indeed be cracking up, becoming fractal so to speak, but consider my story and then consider yours. Take the plunge, look out for that first fractal though, its a doozy. My consciousness is aware of gravity, electro-magnetism, and the weak and strong nuclear forces. Are any of these forces aware of my consciousness or themselves for that matter? I certainly don't have any trouble quantifying my own consciousness as an existing force in nature. Maybe you do, but that's diversity, to each his own I say. Anyways, onwards and inwards. Which is the most pervasive force? Which is the most and least quantifiable force? Consciousness or the other four? Consider gravity. Show me some. Consider consciousness. Now, show me some of that. Two of the most pervasive facets of existence and you cannot show me any? Why, don't they exist? If E=Mc2 says existence exists, no matter what, there must be a way to account for the complete destruction, nonexistence or death of a particle, a universe, or a consciousness. A singularity explodes into existence. A universe is born. Light, matter, space and time accelerate outward towards assigned limits which are set by... what? Life emerges, followed by awareness and understanding. In succession, like a renewable resource, past and present knowledge is absorbed, wisdom grows and ages, to become new knowledge for the future. A process that never ends, begins, over and over again. The squaring never stops, it expands and becomes wide and diverse and approaches infinity. Life and consciousness begin and then expand to a preset limit, just like the universe in which they occur appears to. A single life reaches a certain limit, then collapses. We all will know that reality whether we accept it or not. When a universe finally crunches down into a black hole singularity where does it go, nowhere? Nowhere cannot exist, ever. Existence must exist, always. So, what happens to a consciousness when it crunches down into death? Does a particle ever reach the center of a black hole? According to Einstein, and everything we know of physics, no. So, can a consciousness ever reach the center of death? If everything in existence is quantifiable, and if everything in existence is subject to the limits imposed by the speed of light and the geometry's of space and time as shaped by gravity, then the answer must be no. When the alpha universe enters the black hole in this omega universe that is death the trip is one way and final. As far as any observer in this universe is concerned alpha is dead, a certified goner. Where did he go? It should be quantifiable. Consider, for a just a moment, the potential. A singularity explodes... Square this. By a planet with six billion diverse alphas, by an omega universe potentially filled with diverse alphas of a quantity that approaches infinity. Now, apply a constant feedback loop, begin the iteration process. Square it again and again...forever. I feel I now have the blueprint for the creation for a universe squared, unique to and vibrating at the same frequency, as me. I mean what else do you do if you are indeed eternal? Sit around in heaven, bang on a harp all day singin "I don't wanna work". No. I've got a job to do. All this within the scope of my own singular mind. Which I admit might be cracking up. As I've determined it at least. Thank you God that was a neat trick. Oh oh, wait a second, aarrgghh, perhaps its only Beelzebub up to his old tricks! Nah, it seems to real. I hope so. Hehehehehe:) Shut up, you bicameral Doubters! Someone else on this site said Quinn's books caused a change in the way they thought, that they were able to embrace and see time into the distant past and into the distant future. Something like this happened to me since I've read Quinn's books. Do not ask me how it happened I certainly didn't expect it. Now, can I parlay all this into something positive that can help this poor old beaten up world? I know this is long winded but so is existence. Later.
Scott <>
Ucluelet, BC Canada - Sunday, May 11, 1997 at 08:51:45 (PDT)
Fastinating, thought provoking and frightening.
Patti Freedle <>
CastleRock, co USA - Saturday, May 10, 1997 at 21:23:06 (PDT)
As a teacher of high school history, i need help with ways of integrating this knowledge into my classes, I have already had classes read and respond/discuss to Ishmael, which some juniors love and others can't stand, but how to incorporate "new visio n" into what I do is baffling me. Anyone have ideas, or deal with same dilemna?
bill hovey <>
portsmouth, nh USA - Saturday, May 10, 1997 at 06:27:11 (PDT)
Knowing where you come from is true wisdom and this book helps connect all of us to a shared past we have all forgotten. This is what I feel most blessed for.
Jason Huberty <>
Madison, WI USA - Friday, May 09, 1997 at 12:20:18 (PDT)
I Would just like to say what an enlightening (sp?) experience reading both books as well as other peoples ideas and DQ's own further thoughts on certan subjects. I would like to agree on Debbie's cranial confusion after reading the books. They both unlock so many doors in my mind and the following flood washes over me and although I feel cleaner afterwards I cannot rightly articulate all that was given to me. Time and just thinking can help I hope. As to Jennifer, I, also, would like to find a forum in which I can discuss these thoughts and have everyone expounding on their own take on different subjects. I am looking forward to a chat room and other such places. PLEASE!!!!, everyone just try and convince other people to read B and Ishmael in the hope that they might fully come to an understanding. Thanks for the read.
M. Sean Cary <>
Columbia/Charleston, SC USA - Thursday, May 08, 1997 at 14:00:30 (PDT)
Len and Judy are on to something.
Sedona, AZ USA - Thursday, May 08, 1997 at 12:26:31 (PDT)
I have read both Ishmael and The Story of B. I find both to have been both easy to read and intellectually stimulating. I am having trouble reconciling the ideas in B with life in this world. This is probably a frequently expressed idea. How can one go on in a culture that is Taker by its very existence. To engage in commerce in any way is to support the Taker ideal. I know that Quinn is not avocating "heading for the hills" this would get us nowhere. It is an inspiring book and I am suggesting to all my friends that they read it.
Chris Sadler <>
Plantation, FL USA - Thursday, May 08, 1997 at 11:20:25 (PDT)
My thoughts about, comments on, or experiences with The Story of B!!!!!!! WOW where do I start!!!! OK - some thoughts, one thought that popped into my head this morning and I might as well start with one of the most recent. It may not be an extraordinary thought, and I think it is quite disturbing but I would like to share for the purpose of learning a nd expanding my mind through others thoughts. OK. One of the thoughts for takers continuing and perhaps starting what is deemed "the agricultural revolution" and subsequently our culture is the experience of power, the power the gods, the power of deciding who is to live and who is to die (I hope this is all right and making sense because it is coming off the top of my head, OK and maybe the middle of my head too). I know when I think of the effects and experiences of power in our culture, I conjure up many depressing images. But to start my train of tho ught I will give an example of an every day feeling of power that may occur. The image is of a person and a "strange-looking" bug. It is now SQUISHED! Now in the moment before the bug lost its life, the human to my thinking would have been feeling a sense of power - I can let this bug live, or I can crush it and end its life (and it is not even a necessity for me - I don't need to eat it, but I have the power to destroy it). Is this not an example of power? Some would call it cruelty etc. etc. Now for ano ther scenario. Another "strange-looking" bug is in a pool of water, desperately flailing its six limbs to keep from drowning. Another human is watching it, feeling a sense of power - I can "save" this bug, or I can let it die. The human saves the bug. Wha t a sense of power - if the human had not lifted the bug from the water it would surely have died. The human feels good inside, like they have done something wonderful. Some people would call this kindness. OK now to gather my thoughts together... Um, I t hink I'm going to find it hard to keep my thoughts clear and simple here, so I hope you understand what I'm getting at. The Leavers saw the Takers with their new way of living, and saw that they were dealing with something new - the secrets of the gods. A nd we see stories such as that of Adam and Eve in which this is shown. So is it right to say that the Leaver cultures did not experience the "powers" I have mentioned above? If so, they did not practise what we call kindness. Is this right? This conjures up images of sterility for me, no feelings. I know we aren't the keepers of the earth, we aren't the saviours and/or vengeful gods of bugs everywhere. Maybe it is because I am not quite out of the thinking of this society, but I find it hard to think of a n existance without kindness, I feel good when I believe I am being kind to fellow living creature, whether it be human or otherwise, and this may be an addiction to power, I don't know!! Sure it is easy to identify the characteristics of this culture tha t seem bad, but I don't know - if we feel we have the power to destroy, then there is always the other side of this power - the feeling that we can preserve, what I am calling kindness - could this be one and a part of the negative qualities that are conj ured up when I think of human examples of power? Thoughts please fellow Bs. Let it B!!!! from Debbie.
Debbie Osterhage <>
Brisbane, Qld Australia - Thursday, May 08, 1997 at 03:10:15 (PDT)
Just finished it today. Whew, I'm exhausted! So much information and still have questions. I have my degree in Anthropology and this book and Ishmael explain so may grey areas in Anthropological theory that had always bothered me, although I don't t hink at the time I realized it. For example, the idea that the Mayans and cultures like them just abandoned their extravegant cultures, that there was no great catastrophie or war, that they simply "got smart" about their situation, gives me hope for our own culture. Thank you Mr. Quinn for this enlightening piece of work.
Holly Deibel <>
Villa Park, CA USA - Wednesday, May 07, 1997 at 22:14:50 (PDT)
In my consulting, am continuing to try to find audiences for the message of Ishmael & B. Reactions are facinating! Personally, I continue to believe that Christianity and the story of B are not incompatible...if you see Jesus as does, for example, Ma rcus Borg (Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time)i.e. as a social revolutionary. We continue to try to find others who are interested in pursuing this perspective.
Len & Judy Kragness <LJKRAG2@AOL.COM>
Minneapolis, MN USA - Wednesday, May 07, 1997 at 15:22:09 (PDT)
In Ishmael, Daniel told his story with 16 oz. gloves, which is why so many religious leaders strangely liked the book. B was told with the gloves off. And religious leaders were not very receptive. Although I am concerned about the future of our human race, I cannot help being fascinated by the why? Why do humans enjoy pain, suffering, hurting others, creating religions based on guilt and sin, societies and civilizations that subjugate people, create environments that are user unfriendly? today, we work harder, longer, doing things we do not wish to do, only to spend short moments called vacations and weekends, spending money we don't have. Simple animals, that humans are intent on killing, denigrating or eliminating, have a much better time of it than we do. Is our superior? intelligence a curse on ourselves? We screw up our home, the only one currently available until we perfect the warp drive, which only makes us more miserable. Why?
Lance Berland <>
Austin, TX USA - Wednesday, May 07, 1997 at 14:11:16 (PDT)
I have read and enjoyed both Ishmael and the story of B, and both have broadend my thinking immeasurably. I think the only flaws in these books are the optimistic overtones. After talking to many people about it, I beleive no one would ever be willing to give up their televisions and cappuchino machines.
Jonathan Gold <>
silver spring, MD USA - Wednesday, May 07, 1997 at 13:36:22 (PDT)
I am glad that there are still people who can imagine new possibilities.
Andrew Frank <>
Forrest Hills, NY USA - Wednesday, May 07, 1997 at 12:34:56 (PDT)
I read Ishmael just last fall and have just finished reading The Story of B and I must say that they articulate the message for which I have been searching. How can so many ignore our overpopulation crisis?
John Solso <>
Tucson, AZ USA - Wednesday, May 07, 1997 at 11:37:15 (PDT)
Uhhhh.... Bruce..... "The well-being of all life forms" is kinda an anthropomorphic concept, don't you think? Isn't that kinda like "speaking" for all life forms? Predators might not agree.
Sedona, AZ USA - Wednesday, May 07, 1997 at 09:30:17 (PDT)
A tremendous and important read. It delivers a rich context and setting for the passing of a message which must be heard. The development of the shifting embodiment of B presents a captivating and plausible presentation of the role a new spirtual lea der introduces - the bifurcation of a contrarian belief system. B delivers the context which supports the step change of punctuated equilibrium which is necessary if we as a society and a living member of this globe are going to be resposible for the future generations of life. As a living system, the antropomorphic mindset of the taker society is irresponsible. As Peter Russell might relate, man may precipitate the next vital occurance of creative destruction (White Hole In Time). If this be the case, then as an energy field, I can only hope that future life will emerge in a more creative, complex, and responsible fashion. For it seems that through time, the growth of complexity, the self organization of systems, has grown to "higher levels." Hopefully such higher levels will not be judged from an anthropomorphi c viewpoint, but rather from a viewpoint that embodies the wellbeing of all life forms. I have passed on many copies of Ishmael and Providence to friends in the past. This forthcoming holiday season the shopping will be made quite simple - for the Story of B will be the gift of my choice to stimulate and challenge the thinking of those I th ink need to embrace the message. What has fascinated me most is the ability of his writing to span generations, from young to old. My children, ages 10 and 12 at the time of Ishmael, to seniors in their eighties have have expressed their strong feelings about his writing. Of course, some in disagreement, but the vast majority agreed that the message was vital. Like art, good writing should stir a reaction. If there is no reaction, then there is indeed a question of value and meaning. But with Ishmae l, B, and Providence, the meaning, value and importance is clearly present. As the school teacher that came forward at the Systems Conference indicated as she passed the large envelope full of letters from second graders, the book is important. A most i mportantly, the books have been written in a language that is simple and clear - not one written to impress the critic or the first publishing agent - but one to impress the thinker and the concerned. I had the priviledge of seeing / listening to Daniel Quinn at the Systems Thinking In Action Conference in San Francisco several years ago. During that session it became apparent the tremendous impact his writing has had on a diverse audience. I applaud his persistence in achieving his vision quest of writing and sharing a message that he felt needed to be heard. Thank you Daniel Quinn. I will continue to look for new titles and the growing message you have so clearly shared with all. Bruce Hogge
Bruce E. Hogge <BHogge@AOL.Com>
Houston, Tx USA - Monday, May 05, 1997 at 13:21:48 (PDT)
Something I intend to read soon. I finished Ishmael a few years ago and still think of its take on the world to this day. I plan to re-read it again and frequently recommend it to others. I look forward to the sequel. It is honestly the best book I have ever read to date.
Doug Akers <>
Guelph, ON CANADA - Monday, May 05, 1997 at 07:19:20 (PDT)
The idea that separation of God from us and the community of life resulted from monotheism, is profound. (Being raised Jewish, the negation of the "Shema" initially felt like a loss of a comforting mantra). The thesis that the source of "taking" contro l came when we separated God from us and had God become a creator who made the world for us, clarified the message of Ishmael for me. I hope to find some new vision here on the web site of how we can move to a radically different paradigm.
Joe Berkson <>
Seattle, WA USA - Sunday, May 04, 1997 at 22:39:31 (PDT)
It is good to know there are people out there trying to spread the widom we can take from DQ. keep it up everyone and we may have a chance.
mark maguire <>
salisbury , md USA - Sunday, May 04, 1997 at 19:54:12 (PDT)
I read Ishmael just last fall and have just finished reading The Story of B and I must say that they have expanded my awareness greatly. I started my own vision quest several years ago and find that insights of Mr. Quinn's are like food for a sole that is starving for the truth.
Glenn E. McIntosh <>
Scottsburg, INI USA - Sunday, May 04, 1997 at 08:06:38 (PDT)
In the news: I read an anouncement in our Cin cinnati paper about a population problem with Canadian geese. The park services said that people were upsetting the balance by feeding the geese. Thet requested we stop and let nature balance. I thought it was another vote for DQ ideas. I see Story of B is now in my Library and I will be passing it to readers.elower
Elizabeth <>
Fairfield, oh USA - Saturday, May 03, 1997 at 12:57:41 (PDT)
I wish there was a way for people who understand concepts such as what is stated in this book and other places to network together. I find it very frustrating to be trying to chance my life and way of living and feeling like I am all alone, when I kno w I am not. I want to met others like myself who understand the importance of breaking away from mother culture, to save the land, the animals, the beauty of all creation and ourselves.
Jennifer <>
Reading, PA USA - Saturday, May 03, 1997 at 08:54:46 (PDT)
Hi all --

Just checking in to let you know that I am still here and still keeping up with the website. Lots of new things on the room, a people-information-service-support directory of the Bnetwork (we will let you know when we are ready to accept ne w records...), neighborhood meetings, and a lot more. Not to mention Daniel's new book (My Ishmael) due out in November.... Keep your eye on the Bnetwork!

p.s. Need a webmaster (who is B)?

The Webmaster <>
Houston, TX USA - Friday, May 2, 1997